Kind act is doubted during debate on social media

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By Greg Holden

A random act of kindness took place in Chatham yesterday. A local woman, Phyllis Lawlor, sought out on Facebook someone in need and delivered to them a free meal.

“Please private message me with someones tel and address that is shut in or in need and we will deliver a hot home cooked meal at 5:30 this evening for free”, said Lawlor. “I prayed to God this afternoon, ‘Lord how can I please you’ (and) the verse ‘feed the least of these’ came to me.”

The Facebook page where the free meal was offered is called Chatham Swappers Rant and Rave !! A page dedicated to rants and raves about local shopping experiences but also includes questions people pose on matters from finding a good photographer to how to rid a cat of fleas.

Lawlor indicated her mother passed away two years ago and she was in part motivated by her memory. The meal she said she delivered consisted of homemade scalloped potatoes, glazed carrots and boneless chicken. Options were open for dessert.

Kind Act Leads To Debate

The act of kindness had immediate results with suggestions of deserving families and courtesy of yours truly a robust debate on religion. By the time the dust settled over 800 comments were contributed, nearly half of them my own. The ensuing discussions were civil for the most part. Only a few religious people degraded into personal attacks, which is expected of them. I faced challenges to the arguments I presented by respectful people who disagreed, which is also expected of them.

No-one disagreed it was a good deed by Lawlor. All people who commented said so, except Lawlor herself who claimed the meal was a “love gift, from god to you!” My first comments stated “to take such a sweet idea and turn that into an act by a nonsensical being” had some likes to it and naturally some dislikes which were more vocal.  I offered to deliver the food myself if no religious connection was a part of it.

A discussion on what beliefs are, what proof is and why saying the christian god does not exist is not a belief unfolded. The proof provided to those who saw it (you can join and see it yourself) was that it is contradictory to assert any omnipotent being exists. This is proved by an old argument, sadly it is not my own. The argument asks if an omnipotent being can form a rock so heavy that it cannot be lifted. If the religious person says yes, then they are saying god is not omnipotent as god cannot lift the rock. If the religious person says no, then they are saying god is not omnipotent as god cannot create the rock. Christians are out of options. Either way their proposed god is not omnipotent, a criteria for all factions of christianity.

Greg, You Are Ruining A Nice Story!

What could possess my mind to take these arguments to such a nice story? It isn’t so nice if your motive is to sell religion. It is deceptive and dishonest. Oh it is a good deed alright, the family that was fed would be the first to agree there. If more people did what Lawlor did then the world would be a better place, minus the religion. However when that good deed is steeped in dogma then it is questionable if the motive was to do good or to sell religion. Those who wished to defend this form of activism tried to compel an argument along the lines of “it is her beliefs”. Counter to that I showed why they are not beliefs, but false instead. I could have used many more such arguments, but I rested my case on two. The other argument is that an omnipotent and eternal being cannot commit suicide and be eternal and if it cannot commit suicide then it is not omnipotent. Two proofs of why saying a christian god exists is false and not a belief. There are many more arguments that fall within this same plane. The bible says the god of the bible never repents and says the same god repents. Impossible. The god that never repents and repents is not a possibility. All beliefs however are possibly true and possibly false. A proven contradiction is not a belief statement.

Muted But Heartfelt

The resulting mayhem was muted by comparison to most like-minded debates. Chatham-Kent, even the ranters and ravers, seems timid about entering debates like that. It is as if fear penetrates people, paralyzes them from coming forward with what is on their mind. Even at last years Great Debate at the Pines, the notions people have were very much kept to themselves. Asking people in the audience about what they had to say was like pulling teeth. Some people lost it entirely, blaming my commentary for disparaging what was a lovely gesture. Two people “friended” me on Facebook, one of them the most polite christian I have met in some time. Plenty more wanted my head in a noose, demonstrating the blood lust of what they worship perhaps. For me it boiled down to the meal being described as a “love gift, from god to you!” Either the gift was from Lawlor or god and I argued it was from Lawlor. Complaints that I diminished her good deed went unheeded, so long as Lawlor herself gave the credit to a god that has been proven to not exist. Suggestions that “this is her belief” were rejected and shown to be untrue. No falsehood is a belief.

Ultimately however I do not govern the rules of logic that so troubled the religious. I do not make the rules, I simply know what they are. In time I expect many more will as well. For all the bluster and emotional diatribes that were no more than misplaced frustration, the interest level for understanding and explaining beliefs from truths or proof from opinion were alive and well. Chatham has a heart, as shown by the free meal and the rhetoric used to defend it. A muted heart, but it beats. Some people thanked me for explaining, some people admonished me as mentally ill. It is about time people who live in the modern age stopped and took the time to go find out what proof is, how to attain it, how it works. There is no more room for ignorance of how to prove something is real or is not existent. These are basics and should be taught in grade school. Any hope that muslims would have locally has to be questioned. If the local people cannot handle the truth and formal logic, how will they handle a large influx of people who doubt the concept of a god taking a day of rest? As it looks, some will say they are mentally ill and some will be afraid to say anything at all. More debates like at the Pines are required to break Chatham-Kent into the modern age of reasoning. If Facebook is any indication, there is a long way to go.

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30 Responses to "Kind act is doubted during debate on social media"

  1. Kate   September 8, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    I’m appalled by this story Greg it seem’s to me you took a good deed and ripped it apart created a debate all for what ????? readership ??? This disgusts me this wonderful woman offered a meal to help her fellow man and you turned it into a 3 ring circus act ….SAD, SAD ,SAD. As I had stated on the original rigmarole you created I am not religious I am spiritual and I was not to offended by her use of God all she wanted to do was show some compassion for her fellow man and this story and your 600 or so comments on her story are sickening to be honest … Reporting thats what you called this …OUTRAGEOUS is what I call it. You should be ashamed .

    • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm

      Over 800 comments last I saw. Go shame those who addressed the issue with malice. I was polite about it.

  2. tiona   September 8, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    this is disgusting 900 + comments on that rant and rave post she made to help a family , and you being ignorant and all of that drama for what this ? are you serious ? find a better way to make your articles !

    • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 2:27 pm

      The article didn’t even come to mind until all the attacks started. It makes a good read.

  3. Melissa Valiquette   September 8, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Greg Holden your douchebag the women help someone and your putting her down for it GET A LIFE there are ppl that like to help others and take your GOD shit somewhere else no one wants to hear it!!!!

    • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 2:43 pm

      Thanks for the advice but it is a complete lie to say I put anyone down. Calling me a douchebag is the best the religous have? Learn that in church?

      • Melissa Valiquette   September 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm

        No if you must know I DONT GO ..why dose someone helping someone else bother you so much the women did what she wanted to do and your putting her down for it why cuz shes a GOOD PERSON!!!!!

        • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:06 pm

          Show me where I put her down.

          I said the deed was a good one and offered to deliver the food myself, without the religious connection. Repeating that I put her down won’t make it a reality. I did no such thing and you will not be able to find a comment where I did so.

          I think you should save your vitriol for the people who replied with put-downs to formal proof arguments, including the racist one. Suggesting oriental women are the only ones who like small penises was racist. Kind people you are defending right? Be proud of yourself then.

          • Melissa Valiquette   September 8, 2013 at 4:26 pm

            you re just annoying the crap outta me so im gonna be nice and leave now only cuz its nice out and I wanna sit on my back porch and drink a beer or 2 lol are you gonna look down on me for that one??

        • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:32 pm

          I don’t drink, but I don’t care if you do. It is a great day, get outside!

      • ohbuddy   September 8, 2013 at 4:26 pm

        why do you assume everyone is religious? people are offended by you regardless of religion

        • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:35 pm

          That is not what I see ohbuddy. I have the support of every atheist I know who has read this. Including those who have supported my rants for many years.

          It is about time you smelled the coffee perhaps?

          Also, I do not need or care for support. I learned a long time ago to think for myself. I could not care less that you are offended. If matters of logic and reason are offensive to you then that is your problem. I don’t care.

  4. Donna Labonte   September 8, 2013 at 3:10 pm

    I believe the old saying is “If you have nothing good to say then don’t say anything.” Nuff said.

  5. Lorenzo Bailey   September 8, 2013 at 3:45 pm

    What a sad person you are Greg Holden, this is absolutely disgusting. I hope you got the attention you obviously so desperately needed. Pitiful excuse for a human being. Shame on you!

    • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:08 pm

      Take the cue from Donna. If I spoke the way you have then you would have an argument.

  6. ohbuddy   September 8, 2013 at 4:09 pm

    You called this lady shady and accused her of proselytizing. how is that not a put down? telling her her beleifs are wrong and you are right? how is that not a put down? your a condesending jerk. with no class.no ethics.no respect. i have no idea why your hired to inform anyone of anything. this “article” “editorial” is a sham.

    • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:12 pm

      I said the intent was shady and she was proselytizing.

      What you call beliefs are false and not beliefs at all. The article shows why and you are free to refute those arguments. It is not a putdown to say someone has wrongly labled a falsehood as a belief, it is a correction.

      I have more class than most people who replied since I never made a personal attack. I did so respectfully too, something you should consider for yourself.

    • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:15 pm

      Explain how saying someone is proselytizing is a putdown.

      • ohbuddy   September 8, 2013 at 4:20 pm

        just because in your mind you didn’t do anything wrong doesn’t mean you didn’t do anything wrong. i don’t care about your dictionary or your logic books. you ACCUSED her of being shady and proselytizing. you are an offensive person.doesn’t matter what you think u did what matters to me is what everyone else saw that you did.

        • Greg Holden   September 8, 2013 at 4:37 pm

          Just because in your mind I did something wrong does not mean I did. I said her intent was shady and not her. Lying is what you learned in church? You did not explain how saying someone is proselytizing is a putdown. Newsflash: it isn’t.

  7. n   September 9, 2013 at 8:18 am

    The most disgusting part is that you used someone’s act of kindness to attack, question, put down and bully her into atheism. There is a long list of powerful leaders that this did not work in and it all ended the same. The best for me is that everyone wants equality and tolerance for their own beliefs (or lack there of) but those same people are very reluctant to give it themselves. I also think that you are an idiot of you think you can now cover up the nasty intent of what you were/are doing by saying you were questioning her intent and not her. I am not opening this up for argument because I respect that you have no God and therefore no purpose to your life really. I do however pray that on your last days or if something really bad happens and you call out His name He hears you.

    • Greg Holden   September 9, 2013 at 8:36 am

      She denied she was responsible for the act of kindness and said god did it.
      I never promoted atheism at all. I promoted logic and showed what proof looks like.
      I never put her down.
      Lying is not an argument.
      She did not express a belief, she expressed a falsehood.
      Purpose is something all people decide for themselves.
      Praying for me proves you do not believe god knows all things. Are you telling god something he does not know? If you do not believe it why should I?

      Leave me out of your fantasies. Calling me an idiot is just sour grapes that your imaginary being is proven to not exist. It is also yet another violation of christianity, judgement of me. Saying so has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism is the belief there is no god and no atheism is required to prove any of the Abrahamic gods do not exist.

      I’d say your religion is dying off for good reason. Good riddence to it too.

    • Greg Holden   September 9, 2013 at 8:38 am

      A lack thereof?

      No thing is a lack of a thing. Saying X lacks Y says nothing about X. Read On Denoting by Bertrand Russell and learn how to use a secondary predicate that uses NOT, to which lack uses.

      Logical buffoonery is the only reason religion exists.

  8. Greg Holden   September 9, 2013 at 8:42 am

    Disgusting is a subjective term. To me it is more disgusting to offer a free meal with the caveat it is a gift from god than it is to say it is asinine to do so.

    • Ohbuddy   September 9, 2013 at 11:42 am

      Your disgusting in my subjective opinion.

      • Greg Holden   September 9, 2013 at 2:09 pm

        And you are entitled to that opinion. I do appreciate that you target me and I targetted what people do and not them. It reflects on you more than it does me.

  9. 30mmavenger   September 9, 2013 at 12:40 pm

    Quote: “Only a few religious people degraded into personal attacks, which is expected of them.” You going to tell me, and the readers, you are not ‘characterizing’ a certain group of people with that line?? You purposely set out to ruffle feathers of “a few religious people” online. You purposely stayed ‘polite’ so you could bolster your own belief/truths/falsehoods, or whatever you want to put out there. Her only intent was to provide a meal to someone in need with the conviction that God inspired her – period! She not once said you have to believe to get that meal, therefore, she was not selling religion. Quote: “However when that good deed is steeped in dogma then it is questionable if the motive was to do good or to sell religion.” Where in all those 900+ comments did she say anything more about religion? No where! She stayed classy!! Her motive was to do good. For you to carry that over to your media page, was to sell your own belief/truths/falsehoods, or whatever you put out there that “sadly is not your own.” I never commented throughout that thread, but I will now. You Greg, are a pompous ass!!

    • Greg Holden   September 9, 2013 at 3:16 pm

      “You going to tell me, and the readers, you are not ‘characterizing’ a certain group of people with that line??”

      I expect such nonsense from them. It is all they have in the way of countering formal arguments that show they are wrong. I was told I was on acid, I had a small penis, I was subjected to racism, suggestions I am mentally ill, have no life, and more. The criticism of the defense of religion is how they go about it. Classless. The critique is about their actions and not them. I presume they hold doors open for old ladies.

      If her only intent was to give a free meal then why did she say it was from god? I said it was from her. It seems we agree on that. Phyllis said it from god. That is preaching about god no matter what.

      Phyllis never replied to me at all in that debate. She stayed classy? She stayed silent.

      I question her motive then and I do now. She is listed on her FB as a public speaker for a church. This was part of that. She came to sell religion. Calling me an ass is simply namecalling and I expect better of anyone old enough to type. To suggest I purposely stayed polite is nonsense. I am always polite. The religous should learn from that. I do not need a fantasy to teach me why it is better to be polite. It is also a psychic reading to advise me of my own intentions. How did you come to be able to read peoples mind?

  10. christine   September 9, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Is atheism not a religion in itself? Does it not require people to believe in god to even have a leg to stand on? Without religion there would not be atheism no?

    Atheism only exists because of other religions. If there were not people who believed in God, then there would not be a word, (atheist) or group of people to believe in “nothing”.

    Budahism (sp?) Would not be considered a religion but a way of life because there is concrete evidence of Budahs exsistance and his teachings right? This makes sense to me.
    How I see it is if you are going by logic, it would make sense that both groups, atheists and religious folk are ” wrong” as you would say, because both groups need each other to exist. One says there is a god, one says there isn’t. Without one, the other wouldn’t stand.

    Regardless, how you went about getting your info for this article was wrong. You could of done this differently, and got the same results, without putting a lady in the spotlight for her religious views, whether you agree with them or not.

    • Greg Holden   September 10, 2013 at 2:21 am

      This inquiry was replied to at the CKReview Facebook page where it was asked as well.

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